Lee Elder

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Posts by Lee Elder

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  57

  Pending Tragedy for the WTS and JWs

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  pending tragedy for the wts and jws.

  the heavy-handed tactics of the leaders of the watchtower society have begun to bear rotten fruit.

  i suspect that it is just a matter of time before the need arises to coin some phrase to describe disfellowshipped or disassociated jehovah's witnesses who bomb conventions, shoot up kingdom halls or even attack bethel facilities.. leaders of the wts (and local elders) should stop and think about the lessons to be learned from columbine high school, the postal service (i.e.

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  Lee Elder

  Psychdigg wrote:

  "Lee:It isn't fair to speculate on the antics of a person who goes on a rampage. You can't blame organizations for the behavior of a crazy person unless they advocate the kind of acting out you are suggesting. The Watchtower does not tell people to return evil for evil. The Watchtower could change into the kind of "open" organization you desire and it still could be the victim of someone who goes crazy. I don't see the Watchtower as behaving much differently from General Motors, The Red Cross, or any other human organization." ++++++++++++++++++++++++

  Why is it not fair? It seems to me that it is not only fair but also pragmatic. A wise person, or organization, carefully considers how their actions are affecting others. Your analogy of the WTS to GM or the Red Cross is false. If these organizations
  terminate a member or employee, they do not forbid other members (including family members) from speaking to them. They have not created the tense atmosphere that exists between current and former JWs. ++++++++++++++++++++++

  A better analogy might for the WTS might be the Mafia. Once you join, you join for life. There is no honorable way out under any circumstance. You are either with us or you are dead to us. Furthermore, those who try their best to walk away peacefully are apparently now being tracked down and DA simply for refusing to meet with judicial committees. This is escalation and generates more hostility as the organization reaches out with its hooks trying to squelch all voices of dissent in a free society. It is simply ludicrous and highly problematic for everyone involved. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

  From my perspective, the development of the Watchtower organization is following a predictable courser closely resembling that of the Catholic church. If they continue to escalate and refuse to listen to the legitimate calls for reform, we will have modern day "Inquisitions" followed by a fracturing/splintering of the organization. They'll finally come around to making necessary changes but far too late to avert tragedy.

  Edited by - Lee Elder on 9 June 2002 13:42:16
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  57

  Pending Tragedy for the WTS and JWs

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  pending tragedy for the wts and jws.

  the heavy-handed tactics of the leaders of the watchtower society have begun to bear rotten fruit.

  i suspect that it is just a matter of time before the need arises to coin some phrase to describe disfellowshipped or disassociated jehovah's witnesses who bomb conventions, shoot up kingdom halls or even attack bethel facilities.. leaders of the wts (and local elders) should stop and think about the lessons to be learned from columbine high school, the postal service (i.e.

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  Lee Elder

  IW wrote:

  "This is not a game, violence is wrong and the suggestion that the
  Watchtower may deservedly be heading towards having violent acts
  perpetrated against them is irresponsible!!"

  I don't believe that I ever stated anything remotely similiar to what you
  have written in this sentence, rather I said that I do not condone nor
  advocate violence. I never suggested that the Watchtower is
  "deservedly" headed towards violent acts being perpetrated against
  them. Those are your words!

  I understand and share your concern - that is why I posted my remarks.
  I know just how real the danger is. Bombs have already gone off in Kingdom
  Halls, family members have already shown up at the Kingdom Hall with
  guns and shot people! Pretending that the problem does not exist will
  not decrease the probability that future acts of senseless violence will
  not be carried out.

  There are some things, however, that can be done:

  1. Encourage the WTS to change its policies
  2. Extricate yourself and your loved ones from what you perceive as
  a dangerous situation.
  3. Reach out, if possible, to those in pain who have exhausted
  their coping resources.
  Sticking one's head in the sand will accomplish nothing. Not
  discussing the threat, in my opinion, probably slightly increases
  the probability of tragedy. That is why I posted in the first
  place. By the way, the probability that this kind of thing would
  touch any of us personally is probably far less than our chances
  of being struck by lightening. What we are talking about here is
  for the greater good of the JW community (both current and
  inactive/former members).

  Best regards,

  Lee
• 
  57

  Pending Tragedy for the WTS and JWs

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  pending tragedy for the wts and jws.

  the heavy-handed tactics of the leaders of the watchtower society have begun to bear rotten fruit.

  i suspect that it is just a matter of time before the need arises to coin some phrase to describe disfellowshipped or disassociated jehovah's witnesses who bomb conventions, shoot up kingdom halls or even attack bethel facilities.. leaders of the wts (and local elders) should stop and think about the lessons to be learned from columbine high school, the postal service (i.e.

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  Lee Elder

  I do not advocate nor condone violence. I'm about as peaceful as they come. Let's assess probabilities:

  Chance that some disturbed person has read this thread this afternoon and feels moved to violence: 0.0001%
  Chance that someone in the WTS will listen to my warning: 0.10%
  Chance that someone is going to eventually go ballistic if the WTS does not
  get its act together: 100%

  I'm not sure how a free society can address these kinds of legitimate concerns without some element of risk. I'll leave this one up to Simon or those reading the thread.

  How saith you - keep the thread or delete it?
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  57

  Pending Tragedy for the WTS and JWs

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  pending tragedy for the wts and jws.

  the heavy-handed tactics of the leaders of the watchtower society have begun to bear rotten fruit.

  i suspect that it is just a matter of time before the need arises to coin some phrase to describe disfellowshipped or disassociated jehovah's witnesses who bomb conventions, shoot up kingdom halls or even attack bethel facilities.. leaders of the wts (and local elders) should stop and think about the lessons to be learned from columbine high school, the postal service (i.e.

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  Lee Elder

  I think it is stretch to suggest that my post is a "call to action" for
  unbalanced individuals to attack the WTS. My comments are a
  strong suggestion for responsible brothers to stop and evaluate
  the risk that current WTS policy creates for members. (Members
  including myself, members of my family and many friends).
  The potential for bomb threats at district conventions to become
  legitimate is real! We live in a dangerous world and it is widely
  acknowledged that the WTS has either attracted or produced a
  higher than average degree of mental illness among its members.

  My comments were prompted by a recent post suggesting that
  the WTS is now going to start DA anyone who refuses to meet
  with a judicial committee. This is simply madness and a further
  escalation of tensions between the organization and several million
  former members.

  The handwriting is on the wall in plain English!

  Brothers - please back it down - If members have been inactive
  and are not attending meetings, let it go. Don't escalate tensions.
  Don't put our family members and friends in jeopardy - it's just
  not worth it. If you have faith in Jehovah, trust that he will care
  for matters in his own time. Accept your own counsel.

  Lee
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  57

  Pending Tragedy for the WTS and JWs

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  pending tragedy for the wts and jws.

  the heavy-handed tactics of the leaders of the watchtower society have begun to bear rotten fruit.

  i suspect that it is just a matter of time before the need arises to coin some phrase to describe disfellowshipped or disassociated jehovah's witnesses who bomb conventions, shoot up kingdom halls or even attack bethel facilities.. leaders of the wts (and local elders) should stop and think about the lessons to be learned from columbine high school, the postal service (i.e.

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• 

  Lee Elder

  Pending Tragedy for the WTS and JWs

  The heavy-handed tactics of the leaders of the Watchtower Society have begun to bear rotten fruit. I suspect that it is just a matter of time before the need arises to coin some phrase to describe disfellowshipped or disassociated Jehovah's Witnesses who bomb conventions, shoot up Kingdom Halls or even attack Bethel facilities.

  Leaders of the WTS (and local elders) should stop and think about the lessons to be learned from Columbine High School, the Postal Service (i.e. going "Postal"), and other similar social phenomenon. Individuals who are pushed to the brink by injustice can and will react violently!

  To continue insisting on the use of archaic policies that infuriate former members, destroy families, cause premature death, wreck businesses and alienate friends will ultimately put not only the organization at risk but innocent lives as well. I urge responsible brothers to insist on a re-evaluation of WTS policy before tragedy strikes. I believe it is essential and in everyone's best interest for the organization to learn make peace with former members.
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  78

  Respect Your Elders!

  by comforter in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ex-jws in this place often berate the gerontological state of the governing body.

  the speak abusively about the oold men in brooklyn.

  why the antipathos against the men in brooklyn?

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  Lee Elder

  I believe that when we take the lead in showing honor to others
  we are making a wise choice - regardless of the persons age.
  I also believe that "there is no fool like an old fool". When individuals
  reach maturity, it is only reasonable to expect that their
  experience in life should have molded them in positive ways.
  When this is the caes, their gray hair is a "crown of glory."

  Lee
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  60

  What's the one thing you miss about the WTS?

  by Naeblis in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  there are times when ilook back fondly on my days in the witnesses, especially when i think on the congregation get togethers we would have every once in awhile (not too often) people from our hall and sometimes others would show up (not too many) and good times were had by all.

  this is how the schedule usually went.. 8pm: arrive at the community centre.

  8:05pm: scope the room.

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  Lee Elder

  I miss the Circuit Overseer giving the elders crap about the congregation hours.
  I miss the Circuit Overseer giving the congregation crap about their hours being too low.
  I miss the elder's giving me crap for not being hard enough on the young ones
  I miss publishers giving me crap for not calling on them for their 3rd or 4th comment at the WT study
  I miss the elders breaking the rules to disfellowship someone since they knew that it was best for the congregation.
  I miss the jealousy, bitterness and backbiting.
  I miss those elders meetings where brothers would get beet faced red and angry
  I miss all of those contribution boxes!
  I miss the elder who was kind enough to offer to spank my son for me
  I miss all of the crap at the District Convention about needing to do more, more, more!

  I could spend the rest of the day on this. In all fairness, I sincerely miss some things:

  The sense of community and brotherhood - even if it was largely phony - who knew?
  Friends with shared experiences over many decades
  The feeling of doing something important to help others
  The firm belief and hope for a bright future
  Saturday morning coffee break
  Camping trips/recreation

  Lee
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  19

  Blood Transfusions and Pedophilia

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ajwrb was approached early on about working together on these issues.

  we took a hard look and opted out for ethical and pragmatic reasons.

  though the issues share a common thread (child abuse), they have to be approached in different ways.

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  Lee Elder

  Island Woman wrote:

  <The Bible does speak of avoiding the eating of blood, JWs extend that application to transfusions; a religious decision. IMO, the current practice in the medical community to take each case individually; at times forcing a transfusion on some children and at other times allowing a "mature" young person to decide what they will or will not accept, is about as good as it will get or should get.>

  When children are involved, including "mature minors" it is our position that physicians should make every effort to provide necessary medical care. The issues involved are very complex, the children have been fed incorrect information regarding blood by their parents and the Watchtower Society and they are under coercion and duress. Many of them, perhaps a majority, will eventually leave the WTS anyway.

  <Medicine is not an exact science, at times it has injured almost as many as it has helped. People must have the right to refuse any treatment they do not want, and religion must be allowed the right to practice as it sees fit, within the law.>

  No one in AJWRB wants to force blood on adult Jehovah's Witnesses. We do want physicians to take reasonable steps to insure that they are making an informed choice. We want physicians to question the validity of the WTS wallet sized advanced directive because some JWs sign them under duress and in an emergency actually would prefer to receive blood if their doctors assure them confidentiality.

  Additionally, the legal issues are not as clear as some may believe. Remember that we have a religious organization passing out what amounts to very specific medical advice about which parts of blood may and may not be used. We have at least one country (Bulgaria) with a different standard for its JW members (no wallet sized advance directives for minors and no controls or sanctions for members who accept blood), and finally we have wholesale dismantling of the policy in process. I believe there are any number of JW leaders who know the WTS is systematically disentangling itself from the blood policy. It may be just a matter of time before a smoking gun appears in the form of internal documents or memos. Should that become available, I believe we could very well see some folks in the organization facing criminal charges - and rightly so. At some level, this is reckless, gross disregard for human life.

  <The answer is education, education, education, which is what you and others are doing and I thank you very much for that!>

  Education is the single most important thing we can do. When we started five years ago, I was amazed at how many former JWs still hung on to the WTS blood policy. Today it is a rare case to find such an opinion. Additionally, we have opened many eyes in the medical community and among active JWs.

  The trend is clear and when the hemoglobin solutions hit the market many lives will be saved and many questions will have to be answered by WTS leaders.

  Change is in the air.

  Lee
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  19

  Blood Transfusions and Pedophilia

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ajwrb was approached early on about working together on these issues.

  we took a hard look and opted out for ethical and pragmatic reasons.

  though the issues share a common thread (child abuse), they have to be approached in different ways.

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  Lee Elder

  Nancee Park wrote:

  "I spoke with a medical doctor last month. She has JWs friends and out of respect for
  them believes it right to not give transfusions to JWs, yes, including JW kids! So you
  have not "won" the debate with all the medical community. This unbiblical (Mt 12) and
  dangerous anti-transfusion stand of the Watchtower Society since the 1960s has killed
  many, still does, and still needs publicised including outside of medical journals for
  example by letters to the doctors themselves. You disagree and won't take it to the
  public. So be it for yourself. But don't be surprised when others do."

  I believe you have misunderstood my remarks. If you review my comments you'll note that I was
  speaking of the medical ethics community, not the medical community in general.

  We have made any number of attempts to take the blood issue to the media and have some good
  results in a few countries like Canada, Columbia, Finland and a few others. The U.S. media has
  never showed much interest. It is like the religion editor for the L.A. Times told me, "the WTS lying
  about its doctrines and policy isn't news." Shocking but true.

  As for writing letters to doctors, the physicians associated with AJWRB have told us that the typical
  physician is inundated with correspondance and solicitations and that the vast majority is tossed
  into the waste can without being opened.

  We do not discourage others from writing letters but simply pass on the best information we can
  about what works best.

  Best regards,

  Lee
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  19

  Blood Transfusions and Pedophilia

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ajwrb was approached early on about working together on these issues.

  we took a hard look and opted out for ethical and pragmatic reasons.

  though the issues share a common thread (child abuse), they have to be approached in different ways.

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  2. 
  3. 
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  Lee Elder

  AJWRB was approached early on about working together on these issues. We took a hard look and opted out for ethical and pragmatic reasons. Though the issues share a common thread (child abuse), they have to be approached in different ways. Ultimately, we felt direct linkage would detract from the work we are trying to do and that the pedophilia problem required immediate and separate action.

  The process of getting the public to agree that children should not be sexually abused and that their abusers should not be sheltered is very straightforward.
  The process of getting the public to agree that Jehovah's Witnesses should not have the right to refuse a blood transfusion is impractical. The necessary arguments are technical and very focused, and the right forum is the medical community.

  Any attempt at hyperbole or sensationalism is quickly shot down by peer reviewed medical journals. However, through careful analysis we have been able to construct solid arguments that resulted in the WTS losing the blood debate in the medical ethics community. This was a victory for AJWRB but it will take years for this to filter down through the other medical communities.

  There is something else to bear in mind as well. When we talk about the victims of the WTS blood transfusion policy, we are usually talking about dead people. There are no victims to place in front of a TV camera and interview. Additionally, how many JW parents are prepared to come forward and talk about the incredibly painful mistake they made in deciding to sacrifice their child? I know of perhaps one ex-JW woman who might consider doing something like that but to do so she must risk effectively ending her relationship with her other believing JW children. She's been through enough - I would never ask that of her.

  So unlike the pedophilia issue, the blood issue by its unique nature does not lend itself well to use of the media - we will never have an Erica Garza. The identities of living JW minors cannot be used and most who need medically necessary blood transfusions go to an early grave. Sadly, we know that probably half of these kids that have died supporting the WTS irrational blood transfusion policy would have grown up and left the WTS anyway - how tragic that some court did not intervene and give them a chance to live. Here we have hundreds, perhaps thousands of permanently "Silent Lambs" in the ultimate sense - they will never roar. They were "small sacrifices" to the WTS blood transfusion policy.

  As you can see from the recent "Shunned Father" story, this is an expensive issue for JW dissidents and other concerned individuals to address. Huge amounts of money are needed to take on the WTS and its mini army of volunteer attorneys. Medical communities must be lobbied, expensive and time consuming research is needed to publish articles in major medical journals like NEJM, JAMA, etc. Costly presentations must be made to medical professionals at conventions. Legal research needs to be done and cases must be won in the courts.

  All of this is going to take a great deal of time and money. If I were a wealthy man, I'd happily part with those funds to make all of this happen. Unfortunately, I am not. A handful of individuals have made some significant contributions to AJWRB that enabled us to print thousands of brochures, put on two major medical conferences and open a lot of eyes, but much more can be done if the resources become available to us. Ultimately, that is up to individuals like the readers of this forum.

  The WTS blood policy can be shaped by outside forces like AJWRB but it requires skill, resources and time. A common thread between the Pedophilia issue and the blood transfusion issue (child abuse) exists, but the approach to dealing with these issues is radically different. AJWRB genuinely appreciates the support that has been provided through this forum and we'll continue to do our best to educate both JWs and the medical community with the goal of insuring that all JWs have a free choice in their medical care without fear of WTS enforced sanctions that can separate them from their family members and friends.

  Best regards,

  Lee